furrbear: (Beadporn)
[personal profile] furrbear
Going through the flotsam & jetsam that is one of my Earthlink accounts this morning, I found this letter from Senator Clinton. I guess they still have me on the list as an early contributor.

I wanted you to be one of the first to know: on Saturday, I will hold an event in Washington D.C. to thank everyone who has supported my campaign. Over the course of the last 16 months, I have been privileged and touched to witness the incredible dedication and sacrifice of so many people working for our campaign. Every minute you put into helping us win, every dollar you gave to keep up the fight meant more to me than I can ever possibly tell you.

On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy. This has been a long and hard-fought campaign, but as I have always said, my differences with Senator Obama are small compared to the differences we have with Senator McCain and the Republicans.

I have said throughout the campaign that I would strongly support Senator Obama if he were the Democratic Party's nominee, and I intend to deliver on that promise.

When I decided to run for president, I knew exactly why I was getting into this race: to work hard every day for the millions of Americans who need a voice in the White House.

I made you -- and everyone who supported me -- a promise: to stand up for our shared values and to never back down. I'm going to keep that promise today, tomorrow, and for the rest of my life.

I will be speaking on Saturday about how together we can rally the party behind Senator Obama. The stakes are too high and the task before us too important to do otherwise.

I know as I continue my lifelong work for a stronger America and a better world, I will turn to you for the support, the strength, and the commitment that you have shown me in the past 16 months. And I will always keep faith with the issues and causes that are important to you.

In the past few days, you have shown that support once again with hundreds of thousands of messages to the campaign, and again, I am touched by your thoughtfulness and kindness.

I can never possibly express my gratitude, so let me say simply, thank you.

Sincerely,

Hillary Rodham Clinton

Thanks, Hillary. Classy letter. At least it should put to rest all the speculation from the pundit and bloviator classes. It seems pretty unambigous about Senator Clinton's intentions; she will be focused on rallying her supporters behind the candidacy of Barack Obama.

So ends a truly historic Democratic primary campaign.

My lamp of Hope has a fresh fill of oil. To quote Marian Wright Edelman,
If you don't like the way the world is, you change it. You have an obligation to change it. You just do it one step at a time.
Screw the cynicism, that's the easy way out; that's doing nothing.

Date: 2008-06-05 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] b-a-n-d-i-t.livejournal.com
Very classy letter, indeed. I think she'll end up being a huge benefit to Obama this fall.

Date: 2008-06-05 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] furrbear.livejournal.com
If she can persuade her supporters to support him. I've seen many vowing to sit at home, some saying essentially, "I live in a red state, my vote won't matter."

Date: 2008-06-05 06:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hickbear.livejournal.com
I'd rather her supporters stay at home than, as [livejournal.com profile] pulsecub proclaimed a few months ago over in [livejournal.com profile] angry_biscuit's LJ, they vote for Cranky McClone.

At least if they abstain, they're not actively destroying their country. As I said over in [livejournal.com profile] mondragon's LJ this morning - if anyone claiming to be a supporter of the Democratic party casts their ballot for McClone, then they'd best not bitch between now and 2013 about the government they selected with their vote.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-05 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hickbear.livejournal.com
I fail to see how simply pointing out that anyone who votes for McSame will get the government THEY selected is somehow "name-calling" nor "taking names". Of course, I'm very unpracticed at the Clinton camp's style of projection (Geraldine Ferraro claiming that she was a victim of racism, anyone?), so maybe I'm missing something.

I'm simply pointing out that, should you vote for McClone and he wins, then you shouldn't bitch at his actions while he's POTUS. After all, you would have gotten what your vote said you wanted - namely, McCranky as POTUS.

If pointing out that the sky is blue, grass is green, and fire is hot is somehow "name-calling", then we have highly differing definitions of that term.
Edited Date: 2008-06-05 07:18 pm (UTC)
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-05 07:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hickbear.livejournal.com
Wow. You obviously graduated summa cum laude from Projection University.

There's a huge world of difference between "here is a concrete example of the topic" (namely, resisting supporting their party's nominee) and the "neener, neener, neener" tone you've taken with me.

If you'd care to re-read what I wrote, I stated everything with "If..." and "...should...", but please, continue to ignore the context. It's obviously more important for you to attack and then whine about attacking (shades of Gerry Ferraro again).

It's crystal clear to me that, to you, "civil discourse" means "agree with everything I say and think, and never challenge me on any of it". Gotcha.

This isn't the first time you've replied to me on this topic. If it's so incredibly stressful for you to do so, I humbly suggest you quit doing so. It'll be a whole lot easier on the both of us.

Date: 2008-06-06 06:21 am (UTC)
qnetter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] qnetter
And they, of course, reserve the right to tell you that you got what you deserved for voting for Preachy MacJesus. Just sayin'.

Date: 2008-06-05 08:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaybear.livejournal.com
Why would you allow the writings of a random person on the internet affect something as important as your presidential vote? I've seen the same sentiment in other places and it just doesn't compute for me at all.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-05 09:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaybear.livejournal.com
I'll elucidate. The reason that it doesn't make sense to me is that, well... it's the *internet.* People argue on it, and write stuff that would never say in person.

As an example - there are a decent number of websites out there, such as No Quarter, HillaryIs44, TalkLeft, MyDD, Taylor Marsh, that have not only been huge proponents of Hillary but crossed over to varying degrees into some really angry, dark commentary on Obama and the DNC (i.e. referring to Donna Brazile as "Brillo Head," Michelle Obama as "The Welfare Queen," talk about how the only job Obama should have at the White House is as Hillary's peronal driver - i.e. 'Driving Miss Hillary'). There's been much, much worse, but I'm just not willing to repeat most of it.

I've read that stuff, because I want to know what is being said. I've never once thought that the average Hillary supporter really thinks that Obama is a murderer, that his wife 'eats bananas for breakfast every morning,' etc. etc. etc. Or that Clinton herself believes or supports 90% of the nasty crap that's been spewed on the internet by advocacy websites.

I guess, ultimately, I feel like if you want to find reasons to be offended and/or solidify your opposition or support for something, anything, the internet is a great place to go, because you can find someone writing something to reinforce pretty much any opinion you might hold.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-05 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaybear.livejournal.com
Nope. It is clear that we're totally talking at cross-purposes, so there's no point.

Date: 2008-06-05 10:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hickbear.livejournal.com
This isn't the first time, nor the first LJ, where Jamie has decided to get all huffy and pouty and offended that each and every homo in the U.S. didn't automagically line up in support of Clinton. He's made it clear that, in this election, it's His Way Or The Highway, but he's also made it clear that no one on ghod's green earth is to point out his statements to the effect that in this election, it's His Way Or The Highway.

Which is a long way of stating that yeah, he wanted to be offended and therefore he was offended, QED.

To our gracious host, my apologies for participating in such an unseemly, unsightly thread.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-06 12:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaybear.livejournal.com
Um... there's a world of difference between a generalization and a directed statement... It's been really difficult for me to tell throughout this back and forth if you're intentionally misinterpreting, or what. It *feels* like you're going out of your way to selectively interpret in the light that allows you to take the greatest possible personal offense and umbrage, but since I don't know you, I can't tell.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-06 01:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jaybear.livejournal.com
See, I knew we were talking at cross-purposes, which is why I stopped.

My entire interest has been in understanding this one statement: "It's judgmental attitudes such as this that push me as far away as possible. I don't want what you have or want, apparently." It's something I've seen in various corners of the internet - the idea that "I don't like how advocate of X is behaving, therefore, that affects my opinions of X," where X has no direct relation to said advocate. It is completely foreign to my mode of thinking, and I was trying to understand it.

I have zero interest in your back and forth w/ atldaddybear.
Edited Date: 2008-06-06 01:49 am (UTC)
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-05 07:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hickbear.livejournal.com
Yes, Mommy. Concrete examples of someone proclaiming that it's "Hillary or Bust" is wrong!WRONG!WRONG!

Yes, hall monitor. We understand.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-06-05 07:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hickbear.livejournal.com
Your looks are hot, and need no comment from me. Your intelligence has just been put on display, and likewise needs no comment from me.

Date: 2008-06-06 12:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cipherpunk.livejournal.com
As a McCain supporter, I take offense to your claim that I am actively destroying my country.

As I think John can attest, I am not one to give blind support to any political party. After weighing McCain versus Obama, I’ve come to the conclusion that McCain is the lesser evil. I still don’t talk trash about either Obama or his supporters, and I think it’s reasonable to expect you to do likewise.

We’re all Americans here, we’re all in this together, and we’re all struggling to make the best decisions we can about a complex and rapidly–changing world. Let’s show some respect.

Date: 2008-06-05 07:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] b-a-n-d-i-t.livejournal.com
I think ultimately most will, when presented with the contrast of McCain and Obama this fall, and what a McCain presidency might entail.

At least, I'm hopeful that's the case... I understand the disappointment they must feel right now and feeling are hot since the campaign is just now concluding. But I think once Hillary starts actively campaigning for Obama and the race heats up this fall, most will support him.

Date: 2008-06-05 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cimarrondfw.livejournal.com
I agree she has stated her case and her purpose well. Did you read my lengthy comment under [livejournal.com profile] mrdreamjeans recently?

Date: 2008-06-05 06:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] furrbear.livejournal.com
I don't recall seeing it, I may have read Neil's entry before you commented. I'll scan back a bit.

Date: 2008-06-05 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] popicn.livejournal.com
I love her.

Date: 2008-06-05 11:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cipherpunk.livejournal.com
I’ll believe Hillary’s truly behind Obama once she quits the race and frees her delegates to vote for Obama, rather than her current strategy of suspending her campaign, which allows her the leverage to still broker back–room deals among superdelegates if she gets the opportunity.

If she was really behind Obama, she’d free her delegates and remove any doubt whatsoever about her ultimate ambitions.

Date: 2008-06-06 06:27 am (UTC)
qnetter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] qnetter
I think she deserves the dignity of a floor vote at the convention, or at the very least, the full focus of the convention to turn over her delegates. As for "back-room deals," remember that it's a PARTY primary, not a PRE-PRESIDENTIAL primary -- the nomination is the job of the convention, and primaries are just one of the mechanisms involved.

Date: 2008-06-06 06:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cipherpunk.livejournal.com
So let me get this straight: when the Florida election was settled by the courts, it was undemocratic and a shame to the nation, but if the Democratic Party wants to determine a candidate via back room deals at a party convention, this is democracy in action, this is “the job of the convention”, and the democratic process of primaries and caucuses is “just one of the mechanisms involved”?

I’m not a Republican, I’m an independent voter — but it’s things like this that keep me from ever joining the Democratic Party.

Date: 2008-06-06 07:07 am (UTC)
qnetter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] qnetter
Do you understand the difference between a PARTY primary and a general ELECTION? The only reason there are primaries at all is that the party chooses to use that method as part of its system. And that's true in every party: the nominees of the parties are chosen by the members of those parties according to the rules of those parties.

Date: 2008-06-06 07:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cipherpunk.livejournal.com
Yes, I do understand the difference. I’m only pointing out the contradictions of (a) a Democratic Party which is deliberately structured to allow nondemocratic results, (b) a candidate who claims to be the “winner of the popular vote” but only by discounting the results of every state caucus, which seems undemocratic, and (c) a Democratic Party which has repeatedly condemned the Republicans as the party of power and privilege, but have ensconced a party system rife with superdelegate privilege.

Clinton has made hay for years out of how many voters were disenfranchised in Florida during the 2000 election, so I find her attitude in discounting caucus participants to be nothing short of hypocrisy. My mother participated in a Democratic caucus. Every time Hillary says she won the popular vote, she’s saying my mother’s participation in a nominally democratic process can be dismissed out–of–hand.

Date: 2008-06-06 07:19 am (UTC)
qnetter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] qnetter
I live in a caucus state. It's an invitation for the cause-driven fanatics to stuff the room and game the system. The Washington caucuses were rife with young Obamaniacs who shouted down and shut out the long-time Democrats in the room. Couple that with the fact that they purport to be "popular" but (by imposing a two-hour participation window) make it impossible for many working people to be involved in the process, and there's no way they should be considered part of the popular vote. If states want to use it as a nominating method, fine (bad idea, I think, but their right) -- but you can't call it "popular vote."
Edited Date: 2008-06-06 07:21 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-06-06 07:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cipherpunk.livejournal.com
All politics is an excuse to game the system.

I can’t speak about the Washington caucuses. The Iowa caucuses were, according to every participant I’ve spoken with, a raucous but quite civil affair for both parties.

Date: 2008-06-06 07:29 am (UTC)
qnetter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] qnetter
Any voting method that requires physical attendance during a short period of time is not popular vote.

Date: 2008-06-06 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bookish-cub.livejournal.com
I agree...that is a very classy thing for her to do.

Date: 2008-06-07 08:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fogbear.livejournal.com
"Screw the cynicism, that's the easy way out; that's doing nothing."

Amen, brother.

Date: 2008-06-07 05:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danthered.livejournal.com
Classy if sincere, but I have my doubts. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

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